Non-Hechsher Kashrut

I haven’t been able to find this basic question asked anywhere: how does one square going off of ingredients only, when there are such plants that will process other treif ingredients, but will obviously not be listed on the packaging? Don’t we have to also make sure the equipment is also kasher?

Thanks in advance.

Nope
The machine probably doesn’t even have to be clean (which I’m sure it is). See Shulchan Aruch Yore Deah Siman 96 Seif 4

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The cited examples in the SA/YD involve preparation with a knife. Does the same hold true if the food is heated (cooked) in it’s preparation?

I’m not sure how it would work by cooking.

Then this goes back to my original question to some degree. If these foods are being cooked, and they are in facilities that cannot be verified, how does one honestly rely on the ingredients list only kashrut standard upheld on this website? Thanks for your clarification.

I can think of at least two meanings here:

  1. How the heter applied to items cut with a knife could be applied to items cooked
  2. How commercial food preparation might involve shared cooking equipment

Will you clarify? Thanks very much.

The heter for cut fruit wouldn’t apply to one piece of fruit. It needs to be multiple pieces. When cooking an item that gets an unkosher taste or item of food, that requires shishim (60 times the unkosher taste or item).

I’m not sure what the shared cooking point is

The question is very strong and important and the answer seems vague and possibly misleading.
I’m doing some research since I mistakenly ate a Nature Valley chewy granola bar without supervision.
OU said the ingredients are kosher but the equipment not (i.e they cook/prepare other products with non kosher ingredients). Assuming the worst case ( cooking /heating is used in the preparation of the product) how would that be permissible?
(I’m obviously looking for a serious leniency)
Thanks!

I’m confused by your question. On the one hand, you seem very concerned about keeping the highest standards of kashrut but then you end off stating that you are obviously looking for serious leniency.

This website was created to help people who are seeking the guidance of Rav Yitzchak Abadi and intend on following the halachic rulings whether it be of stricter or more lenient in nature. You can’t pick and choose what to follow. Nor should you go Rav hopping bringing your halachic questions from rabbi to rabbi until you receive a ruling of your liking. You should pick a qualified Rabbi to ask all your halachic questions and follow his guidance in its entirety.

That being said, there are several volumes in the shulchan aruch that deal with different aspects of your question and time doesn’t permit for anyone to write a complete understanding of all these halachos so that you can understand how to respond to the OU for example.

But I will leave you with one question to ask yourself or the OU. What non-kosher food was baked or cooked on the same machines? I don’t believe nature valley cooks rib steaks on the granola machinery.
Additionally, how are these machines cleaned between different batches and different products?

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Dear Ralph,
I really appreciate your reply. I truly appreciate it.

If you happen not to understand me, let me explain myself and give you a proper response.
I’m not concerned about the highest standards of kashrut. Kosher is Kosher is Kosher. Stringencies are a personal matter. We do have in place Kashrut Organisations that use many stringencies and some leniencies. By OU standards that was not possible to give their certification.
Yet the case is pretty straight-forward. Perhaps I assumed mistakenly that the Kashrut guidelines of Rav Yitzchak Abadi are broad and not case-specific. Here I have a granola bar that I ate thinking it was Kosher. OU confirmed no issues on the ingredients, but on the Kellim. Is there an answer for this? (Serious leniency: something I can base of to explain others: “It’s kosher because: This Rabbi Says so, and he base himself in this and this and this”). Instead, I don’t see a clear path to reach a conclusion (and I feel it’s a central question for this forum).

Personally, I’m not so concerned about accepting rulings as correct (a-priori or a-posteriori (BEDI-avad)) instead of “following a rabbi” left and right. It’s a personal choice, not saying it’s the right approach.
Please help me with my question first, and I commit myself to discussing the tangential points after.

Thanks!!!

OK glad we clarified this.

So to answer your specific question about the kashrut of the kellim, I refer you to the shulchan aruch mentioned above which discusses this halacha. See Shulchan Aruch Yore Deah Siman 96 Seif 4

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But before me delving into that, It seems @dweg question was not addressed, because he replied about the halacha relating to a knife and not to cooking. then @solrkohen explained it better:

“Then this goes back to my original question to some degree. If these foods are being cooked, and they are in facilities that cannot be verified, how does one honestly rely on the ingredients list only kashrut standard upheld on this website? Thanks for your clarification.”
and then @dweg again.
How do you bridge the gap between Shulchan Aruch Yore Deah Siman 96 Seif 4 (allegedly referring to a knife) and cooked products in non-verified facilities.

To be sure:
מי לימוני"ש שמביאים העובדי כוכבים וכן חתיכות דג מליח שמביאים העובדי כוכבים בחביות מותרים: הגה מפני שמביאים הרבה ביחד ואף אם נאסרו מקצתן שנחתכו בראשונה עם סכין עובד כוכבים נתבטלו באחרים הנחתכים אחר כן שאינן נאסרין כי כבר נתבטל טעם הסכין בראשונים ולכן כולם מותרים וכל כיוצא בזה (בית יוסף בשם שבולי לקט) ולכן אוכלים בקצת מקומות הכרוב שקורין קומפש"ט אע"ג דפרוס וחתוך ויש מקומות שמחמירין בזה ואין לשנות המנהג (מהרי"ו סי’ מ"ט) אבל שאר דברים שאינם חריפין כגון תפוחים או לפתות יבשים וכדומה נוהגין בהן היתר כמו בלימוני"ש ואין להחמיר כלל (בארוך):

While I can appreciate your questions, I find them out of place. One needs to be well versed in all volumes of the Talmud, Rambam, Tur & Bet Yosef, and Shulchan Aruch to be able to determine whether any of these kashrut concerns listed above are actually of any concern in halacha.

Next, one needs to actually do their research about how food manufacturing plants operate and how their machines are used and cleaned.

Then, one needs to understand what ingredients are used in what and whether any of the ingredients are of any concern in halacha or whether prior use of any of these ingredients would deem any of the utensils and machinery problematic.

Only then would it be appropriate to debate the understanding of the Shulchan Aruch or other halachot. Until then, this debate is futile. I say this with all due respect while acknowledging your request to understand.

Would you debate a surgical procedure with a surgeon based on a paragraph you read in a medical book? Would you expect to full understand the depth of the surgeons opinion without a deep understanding of every aspect of anatomy, surgical machinery, pharmacology…? I hope not.

This debate above is no different. A kashrut question was asked and answered. For those who wanted to educate themselves a little more about the halachic aspects of the question were even provided with a starting point in the Shulchan Aruch. But now it seems like we are debating the basic understanding of the Shulchan Aruch without going through all the halachot thoroughly and understanding every aspect of the pertinent halachot and supporting materials.

Please take the time to fully educate yourself of the actual manufacturing processes and procedures. Next, spend some time learning all the pertinent halachot and familiarize yourself with the sources of these halachot in the Torah and the Talmud.

At that point we may have a proper conversation about these halachot.

Sorry, I cant be more helpful.

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@ralph.lasry Could you provide me with the Responsa from R’ Abadi (hebrew would be fine) so I can understand better?
Thanks!

Sorry, the laws pertaining to Kashrut at manufacturing plants basically touches on hundreds of halachot from the Shulchan Aruch. There is no one Responsa covering all these topics.

You should work the other way. Start with a specific concern and then learn the Halachot pertaining to that concern. Then work on the next concern.

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I believe an illustrative example may be of use, concerning a product that has been approved on this forum, and thus can be explained according to the sources that would make such a product kosher. For example: Fritos bean dip (Fritos bean dip)

There are products in the facility such as non-kosher cheese dip that was mentioned on this forum as well. So why is there no issue of cross-contamination between these products, potentially using the same facilities? What are the issues, and what are the kosher requirements that we would need to check if we would do our own homework and call in?

Even if the products were made on the same machines they would be ok. They are cleaned between prooducts. Even if they are heated, the food contamination from previous products would not be enough to render the new product unkosher.
However if you’re not familiar with many ingredients and what they really are, its safer to ask someone who knows ingredients.

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